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Rules Revision Discussion

Postby the mystical one on Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:47 am

In this thread, discuss how you think the current rules should be revised.

* The basic ruleset for each realm will not change (besides a potential gambling-related rule).

* Suggest ways to reword existing full rules entries for clarity.

* Suggest ways to modify existing rules so that they are more fairly applied (AKA, modifying the letter of the law, but not the spirit)

So basically, if you guys can come up with a solid way to explain camping so that it's very easy for someone to understand, great!

If you guys can fix up the duelkilling rule so that it is applied always in sensible manner, and that manner is more clearly understood than it is now, great!

I cannot promise any actual changes (because maybe all we come up with will be bad suggestions, or unfeasible, or whatever), but if anything good comes out of this, then rules will be revised. Custom forum titles may be awarded for excellent rule rewordings/reworkings.
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Re: Rules Revision Discussion

Postby RodeoJoe1 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:04 pm

My two cents...

GAMBLING: The only modification I see myself supporting is the one someone suggested in another thread (I forget who/where) that the Old Man's gambling funds be limited to what he wins from other players -- but always with a minimum for the next person should someone break the bank.

The blackjack-playing dwarf doesn't need to be modified because there is already a strict 5000 gold limit in playing him, and you only meet him by chance anyway.

(EDIT: I guess I'd support putting an absolute cap on how much you can win from the dwarf akin to how much you can win from the Old Man. But then, is anyone really going to spend hours playing blackjack with the dwarf at a mere 5,000 gp a pop? If so, they are this guy:

Image )




CAMPING: It seems that the weakness in the "letter of the law" here is that it is largely discretionary and very fluffy and vague. You are going to have to draw the bright line here, even though some people may not like it.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you have enough experience to advance two levels, and you make no attempts to advance even one level, then that is camping. I would apply this across the board (making it no different if someone's a level 2 who can be level 4 or a level 8 who can be level 10, or what have you). And yes, you may not be able to defeat the level 10 monsters as easily this way, but hey, that's the game. That's what makes it competitive. If you're hanging out on a lower level so you can get your Spear of Gold or whatever in order to completely blast away your enemies once you do advance, that sort of defeats a lot of the point of the game. Not all forest fights should be easy.

(I realize this may be different from some people's viewpoints of camping now, but I do not see any reasonable justification that does not amount to a defense of camping in just hanging out on a level -- no matter what level it is -- when you have enough experience to jump at least 2 levels.)

In applying this rule, a bright line should also be drawn for level 11 (which only has one more level to advance). Either you make it that level 11 warriors with enough experience to go to level 12 HAVE to attempt to defeat Turgon to advance, or you put some other experience "cap" on level 11ers that would be equitable in light of the restrictions placed on those of lower levels as outlined above. I would make this cap NO GREATER THAN 40,000,000 experience points, as theoretically if there was a level 13, this would be the amount of experience needed to reach level 13 given the pattern of the experience lines for each level.

I think the camping rules for level 12ers are clear and need not be futzed with too much. You fight the dragon every day you play at level 12. There you go.

(I would not, however, enforce this rule too harshly after one measly day of not fighting the dragon. Sometimes people forget, sometimes people get booted offline, what-have-you. Warnings can suffice.)

So as for wording:

CAMPING -- Levels 1 -10: If you have enough experience to advance at least two levels above what you are currently at (e.g., a level 2 character with enough experience points to be able to advance to level 4 or beyond), and you do not make a good faith effort* to win in a master fight every day you play with enough experience to advance two levels or more, then that is camping, and is disallowed.

CAMPING -- Level 11: If you are level 11, you must make a good faith effort* to win in a master fight every day you play with at least X (40,000,000?) experience points. Otherwise, you are camping, and in violation of the no camping rule.

CAMPING -- Level 12: If you are level 12, you must make a good faith effort* to win in a red dragon fight every day you play at level 12 (unless you die by other means). Otherwise, you are camping, and in violation of the no camping rule.

* "Good faith effort" here means that you have fight the master with the purpose of winning. For example, any attempts to circumvent the rule by selling or downgrading your weapons and/or armor before fighting the master/dragon will clearly be in violation of the rule.
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Postby Dazhbog on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:16 pm

I have to disagree with these suggestions for defining camping. Camping has to do with being annoyingly and unecessarily powerful on a given level and thus messing up the game for other players--it is inherently not a winning strategy. Spending a little time at level 8 in order to be able to advance to 12 is playing to win, not camping. Dealing with level 10 and 11 before you're ready (or really at all) can severely damage your chances of doing well. It's very different with the lower levels. As for anyone stupid enough to camp at level 11, let them. The ridiculous amount of time it will take them to amass the gold for decent equipment and the many days of dying in the forest should constitute punishment enough.

This being said, it might be helpful to define camping more concretely for some levels and situations, although it's difficult to do. I would not support making it impossible to buy a certain level of armor or weapon without being on a certain level. I've played on a site that does that, and it's so strict that it's extremely annoying. Sometimes you get lucky--a bank double, what have you--and you can get better than normal equipment for a level before being able to level up. We might want to try to define what constitutes an "excessive degree" of gold or equipment for a given level, but I think it has more to do with intent. If I'm lucky enough to get an Able's Sword while I'm still on level 6, I'll take that Able's Sword and move to level 8 as soon as possible, although if I got it at the end of the day, I might not level up until the next day (it's just smart playing to try to get some self defense kills). Of course, in the case of not having enough experience to level up at the end of the day and there being no one to kill, I certainly don't see why I shouldn't be able to buy the Able's Sword I was lucky enough to amass the gold for. For someone who would just sit there after that, though, that's camping. It's about intent, and that's why it's hard to define exactly in the abstract. There are clear cut cases--a spear of gold at level 6 would definitely be camping.

I think our working rule of thumb for level 8 needs no improvement. 1/1 10,000,000 exp. just makes sense. If you tell people they can't have that and that they have to spend time on 9, 10, and 11, you'll just slow down the progress of the better players for no good reason.

Edit: I personally believe there are perfectly valid reasons to spend time on level 9, but I understand those who don't. And I don't think anyone should be forced by mandate to do forest fights on 10 or 11.
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Postby RodeoJoe1 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:35 pm

Dazhbog wrote:I would not support making it impossible to buy a certain level of armor or weapon without being on a certain level. I've played on a site that does that, and it's so strict that it's extremely annoying. Sometimes you get lucky--a bank double, what have you--and you can get better than normal equipment for a level before being able to level up.


I do agree with Dazhbog here. Actually, I've seen it where you have to have a certain amount of strength or defense points to have a certain weapon or armor. It is a stupid rule, and I would not support it being instituted here.

I maintain my other opinions as discussed above in this thread.

I think Dazhbog misunderstands part of my suggestion (though correct me if that's wrong, Dazhbog). To better explain:

Under my suggestion, you may not be more than 1 level removed from where your experience could put you. If, for instance, you are level 6 and have enough experience for level 8 or more, you MUST fight the level 6 master to advance to level 7. However, once you are on level 7, you need not fight the next master to advance to level 8; you may remain on level 7 until you have enough experience for level 9. Under my suggestion, you may always be 1 level under what you can be. This would still allow people a very reasonable period of time to hang out on a lower level while racking up gold, strength, and vitality.

Even if a vast majority of people disagree with this limit, I maintain that the bright line limit ought be drawn.
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Postby Dazhbog on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:41 pm

I understood that, but I didn't address it directly because I figured I was addressing it implicitly when I stated emphatically that I like our current definition of what is not camping as far as levels 8 and 9 (and especially 8 ) are concerned. There's no sense forcing people to face the level 10 and 11 forest. I could see adopting this rule for the lower levels, but I'm afraid the admins would find it very burdensome to enforce; I also don't want to rule out strategically not leveling up until the beginning of the next day if leveling up would be the last thing you would do on a given day.
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Re: Rules Revision Discussion

Postby Hidden Imp on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:51 pm

RodeoJoe1 wrote:GAMBLING: The only modification I see myself supporting is the one someone suggested in another thread (I forget who/where) that the Old Man's gambling funds be limited to what he wins from other players -- but always with a minimum for the next person should someone break the bank.

Really, who's going to code that?

CAMPING -- Level 12: If you are level 12, you must make a good faith effort* to win in a red dragon fight every day you play at level 12 (unless you die by other means). Otherwise, you are camping, and in violation of the no camping rule.

* "Good faith effort" here means that you have fight the master with the purpose of winning. For example, any attempts to circumvent the rule by selling or downgrading your weapons and/or armor before fighting the master/dragon will clearly be in violation of the rule.


This would force good players to break the rules in order to maximize their dragon speed. If you think they should be forced to level you don't understand the game.
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Re: Rules Revision Discussion

Postby Ram on Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:12 pm

Hidden Imp wrote:
RodeoJoe1 wrote:GAMBLING: The only modification I see myself supporting is the one someone suggested in another thread (I forget who/where) that the Old Man's gambling funds be limited to what he wins from other players -- but always with a minimum for the next person should someone break the bank.

Really, who's going to code that?


Good question!!!! That's crazy!!! It would take not only forever to find the area in which to input this code, but how to keep track of the variables, add everything together, and control it!!

The only thing I can see is an alteration in the percenages for wins. This would require skill in the gambling then, as well as a lot of luck, and would not lead to the massive gambling problem that we might potentially have. There are what.......5 of us that manage to do it right? :whatever:
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Postby RodeoJoe1 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:42 pm

Dazhbog wrote: I also don't want to rule out strategically not leveling up until the beginning of the next day if leveling up would be the last thing you would do on a given day.


Okay, I could understand that, yes.

Still, I think the bright line ought be drawn. Sorry, but I think staying at level 8 until you can go to level 12 is ridiculous. That *is* camping. There may be other strategic considerations non-player-kill related, but it is.

You want to outlaw camping, or you don't, whatever, but if you do, actually do it. Don't be like, "Oh, well, if you're levels 7-9, it's okay, because that's strategy."
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Postby Ram on Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:53 pm

RodeoJoe1 wrote:
Dazhbog wrote: I also don't want to rule out strategically not leveling up until the beginning of the next day if leveling up would be the last thing you would do on a given day.


Okay, I could understand that, yes.

Still, I think the bright line ought be drawn. Sorry, but I think staying at level 8 until you can go to level 12 is ridiculous. That *is* camping. There may be other strategic considerations non-player-kill related, but it is.

You want to outlaw camping, or you don't, whatever, but if you do, actually do it. Don't be like, "Oh, well, if you're levels 7-9, it's okay, because that's strategy."


Are you not aware that most players who are and good go to level 12 nearly every time with 1mil/1mil or 1mil/4mil, whatever min can be reached, sometimes even 400k/400k, so that gold may be stockpiled to kill the dragon faster? When they have 10mil to go to 12, they go, and this is not camping. They (we) can survive level 12 with this equip but would not stand a chance at levels 10 or 11, which are possible the 2 worste in the game. They can only be strategically used with 1mil/400k or better and a shitload of skills to do fights with.
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Postby Dazhbog on Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:57 pm

RodeoJoe1 wrote:Still, I think the bright line ought be drawn. Sorry, but I think staying at level 8 until you can go to level 12 is ridiculous. That *is* camping. There may be other strategic considerations non-player-kill related, but it is.

You want to outlaw camping, or you don't, whatever, but if you do, actually do it. Don't be like, "Oh, well, if you're levels 7-9, it's okay, because that's strategy."


According to everyone here besides you, that's exactly what it is. You are taking a stand against an entire community of people, many of whom have been here far longer than either you or me, so you're going to lose on changing the definition of camping to include staying on level 8 until you have 1/1 and ten million experience. You're just not going to find much support here for the idea of forcing people to play the forest in levels 10 and 11, which does make the game slower. And besides, people don't even know when they reach precisely enough experience to go up two levels, which would make the whole system you've proposed confusing as well as difficult to enforce. Working out those issues, like I said, I could see applying it to lower levels.

I stand by my statement that camping is as much about intent as it is about (in)action at any given time, perhaps more about intent. True camping is not playing to win, but rather playing to become excessivelly powerful for a given level. Moving to level 10 or 11 with, say, 1/4 is just as much not playing to win as camping. It will slow your ascent to 12, and it would slow down the round significantly if everyone did it. Moving from 8 to 12 when you're ready is playing to win.
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Postby RodeoJoe1 on Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:15 am

Dazhbog wrote:According to everyone here besides you, that's exactly what it is. You are taking a stand against an entire community of people, many of whom have been here far longer than either you or me, so you're going to lose on changing the definition of camping to include staying on level 8 until you have 1/1 and ten million experience.


I realize I'm not a "veteran" here, but if you don't draw the bright line, you're still going to have ambiguity. It seemed to me from TMO's post that the idea of the thread was to foster suggestions on reducing ambiguity. A bright line rule would be really clear. Maybe we can modify and tweak that idea a bit, until it's something more people are happy with, but it's something.

Dazhbog wrote:And besides, people don't even know when they reach precisely enough experience to go up two levels, which would make the whole system you've proposed confusing as well as difficult to enforce.


Feel free to correct me if this is incorrect, but I'm pretty sure it's:

LEVEL 2: 100
LEVEL 3: 400
LEVEL 4: 1,000
LEVEL 5: 4,000
LEVEL 6: 10,000
LEVEL 7: 40,000
LEVEL 8: 100,000
LEVEL 9: 400,000
LEVEL 10: 1,000,000
LEVEL 11: 4,000,000
LEVEL 12: 10,000,000

Dazhbog wrote:Moving from 8 to 12 when you're ready is playing to win.


What about what HotShot did? Surely that was playing to win. But I don't think there's a doubt in many people's minds that it was camping (which is, of course, A-OK for Blue Realm).
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Postby Thyme on Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:20 am

RodeoJoe1 wrote:What about what HotShot did? Surely that was playing to win. But I don't think there's a doubt in many people's minds that it was camping (which is, of course, A-OK for Blue Realm).


HotShot doesn't care about playing to win.
He cares about playing for Kills.
He killed the Dragon, not to get a DK, but because he want more T-skills and M-skills to help in killing people.
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Postby RodeoJoe1 on Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:30 am

Thyme wrote:HotShot doesn't care about playing to win.
He cares about playing for Kills.
He killed the Dragon, not to get a DK, but because he want more T-skills and M-skills to help in killing people.


Okay.

But theoretically, what if -- player kills aside -- someone hung around level 2 until they were ready to kill the dragon?

Draw the bright line.
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Postby Thyme on Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:36 am

RodeoJoe1 wrote:
Thyme wrote:HotShot doesn't care about playing to win.
He cares about playing for Kills.
He killed the Dragon, not to get a DK, but because he want more T-skills and M-skills to help in killing people.


Okay.

But theoretically, what if -- player kills aside -- someone hung around level 2 until they were ready to kill the dragon?

Draw the bright line.


He only did it so quickly because of many different factors that normally won't be in play. I'm fairly curtain that he had gotten a bank double and had done well in gambling, which allowed him to have good weapon/armor. Then a large number of people suicided against him and he was able to get a large amount of exp. Then people kept suicided against him and he was able to get 10 mil exp.

Normally that won't happen. Normally camping at level 2 is NOT the way to get to level 12. Normally it would take much longer. This one time it didn't.


This is all to the best of my understanding and I could easily be wrong on some of my "facts" about how HotShot did what he did, but if I'm not mistaken, I'm at least close.

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Postby mkiisupra1982 on Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:22 am

Thyme wrote:Normally that won't happen. Normally camping at level 2 is NOT the way to get to level 12. Normally it would take much longer. This one time it didn't.

I seriously doubt it wouldnt happen again. He could easily do the same every round. There will always be somebody trying to kill him without realizing how strong he is.
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Postby the mystical one on Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:48 am

RodeoJoe, thanks for the suggestions!

Here's what I have to say about camping:
Camping is primarily not an experience offense. It's primarily not even a level offense. It is an equipment @ level/exp offense. The equipment is vastly more important to determining camping than is the experience.

Camping is sitting at a level in order to gain excessive gold, equipment, kills, etc, effectively playing in a manner which is not conducive to winning at all; a method whcih actively slows you down. (Usually different from being overly cautious and not going after player kills, etc, which is generally a newbie mistake)

A level 8 with 1m/400k and 8million exp is NOT going to survive level 10. Forcing that player to level up because he was ablet o snipe-kill a level 10 or two with shatter (or whatever) is completely opposed to the spirit of the law, which will not be changed.

The question is, how can we reword to make the letter be in-line with the spirit?
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Postby Dazhbog on Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:24 am

Furthermore, RodeoJoe, it seems to me that the line is perfectly clear for levels 8 and 12. There we have a pretty precise rule of thumb. It's the other levels where things get fuzzier. I don't know how to make them less fuzzy myself. While I opposed your particular suggestions, I'd like to make clear that I do applaud you for diving right into active forum life and contributing to the community.

Edit: You know, I guess I wouldn't be absolutely against having certain minimum attack/defense and/or level requirements for handling certain kinds of equipment. I just think that they can be way too restrictive, and if that's what we're going to do, the line should be drawn rather liberally. An Able's Sword should most definitely be allowed at level 6. However, it would be perfectly sensible not to allow a crystal shard--perhaps not even a spear of gold or a Wan's Weapon. Short of this, I don't see how we'll get certain people to follow the rules consistently. There are many who never read or entirely ignore the forums. That's also why you can't expect people to be consciously aware of exactly when they have enough experience to go two levels up. I read the forums all the time and I'm a far cry from having that memorized--but, of course, I'm always aware of what I need to get to each next level on my way to 8 (and what I need from there to get to 12), and I usually fight each pre-eight master about as soon as I possibly can.

As far as rewording the rules themselves goes--I haven't looked at them really recently, but I don't think these are there--some specific examples might be helpful (e.g., a Wan's Weapon at level 7 or below is camping, unless for some very bizarre reason you have the gold for it but not the experience to level up). I would still rather see a rewording than actual restrictions on what you can buy, although some restrictions might be quite sensible.
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Postby Herb on Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:29 am

Dazhbog wrote:Furthermore, RodeoJoe, it seems to me that the line is perfectly clear for levels 8 and 12. There we have a pretty precise rule of thumb. It's the other levels where things get fuzzier. I don't know how to make them less fuzzy myself. While I opposed your particular suggestions, I'd like to make clear that I do applaud you for diving right into active forum life and contributing to the community.


It's not perfectly clear unless it's reflected that way in the Rules, which is what tmo is looking for us to create.

I'll get on this as soon as I can figure out why my new Windows Media Center PC isn't working yet (I think I have to buy a new video card).
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Postby RodeoJoe1 on Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:47 am

The Mystical One wrote:RodeoJoe, thanks for the suggestions!

Here's what I have to say about camping:
Camping is primarily not an experience offense. It's primarily not even a level offense. It is an equipment @ level/exp offense. The equipment is vastly more important to determining camping than is the experience.

Camping is sitting at a level in order to gain excessive gold, equipment, kills, etc, effectively playing in a manner which is not conducive to winning at all; a method whcih actively slows you down. (Usually different from being overly cautious and not going after player kills, etc, which is generally a newbie mistake)


Well, this was rather my point. I see a bunch of level 7s and 8s that could be level 10s and 11s, and they have very superior equipment. I'm new, so I don't want to raise too big a stink about it, but it can be frustrating when you go to attack someone at your level and it turns out they are four or more weapon and armors above you (and not for your own frugality). I guess where I was going with this is that while camping is not an experience/level offense, the experience is a fundamental incidental that is very measurable.

If you try to regulate what people do with their gold, however, then you are going to run afoul of people's freedoms to play according to their personality types -- some are very frugal and like to save and save and make do with inferior equipment until they can eventually afford a crystal shard, while other's prefer to get new equipment the instant they can afford it, and some like to do things "in between" somehow.

I'm still opposed to the way other places do it by requiring a certain strength or vitality score to wield certain weapons/wear certain armors, UNLESS as Dazhbog says, it is *very* lenient and permissive. Diamond Mine BBS, for instance, has this system, but it is excessively restrictive. I've managed to acquire 15 million gold (and not from gambling, but from being frugal and lucky) there, but the most the game is letting me have is a set of Twin Swords.

So maybe this is the answer IF you can find acceptable numbers that are the perfect balance of not affecting the way people play when they are following the rules while actively preventing at least most camping.

I may think on this some more. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to tackle it, here is the list of base strengths/defenses per level (i.e., what your strength and defense is at every level NOTWITHSTANDING things like equipment, elixirs, hammer stones, etc.):

Level STR DEF
=================
1 10 1
2 15 3
3 22 6
4 32 11
5 44 21
6 64 36
7 99 58
8 149 93
9 224 153
10 334 233
11 484 353
12 684 503
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Postby Dazhbog on Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:01 pm

Thanks, RodeoJoe, I've never seen that laid out before. I appreciate your sharing this kind of information.
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